PG Steve Nash--Edges out Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, and Tony Parker
SG Kobe Bryant--Over Manu Ginobili, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen and Vince Carter
SF LeBron James--In a class by himself, but Carmelo Anthony, Tracy McGrady, and Paul Pierce are worthy of consideration as well
PF Tim Duncan--Really tough call between him, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki. Pau Gasol's been great, too.
C Shaquille O'Neal--I'll take the former Superman over the current one (Dwight Howard) and Yao Ming, who just couldn't stay healthy.
You're missing Allen Iverson! And arguably Ben Wallace.
ReplyDeleteWallace was great defensively but too much of a black hole on offense. Good catch wit AI though. Can't believe I forgot him.
ReplyDeleteI know you love Paul, but he shouldn't even be in the conversation, playing only 4 years in the 2000s. Tony Parker should be at worst 3rd. KG and Dirk are great and surefire HOFers, but Duncan easily wins. Pierce should be ahead of Lebron on the sole fact that Lebron only played 6 seasons.
ReplyDeleteLebron's six seasons were way better than Pierce's ten. Lebron won two MVPs, for instance, and Pierce didn't win (or deserve any).
ReplyDeletePaul's best seasons were head and shoulder above Parker's best. For a few years there Paul had a case as one of the best three players in the game, and you can't say the same about Parker.
It's like how Sandy Koufax retired after the 1966 season, but he's clearly the best lefthanded pitcher of the decade. Sometimes short brilliance trumps sustained excellence.
I don't agree. The final 6 years, yes, go to James, though Pierce did win the title and outplayed James in game 7 of the 08 east. conf. semis. James only won 1 MVP, in 2009, not 2, and he was only relevant for MVP consideration for 08 and 09, maybe 06 as well. And MVPs are the worst paramater to use. They are by far the highest-biased voted on award, and it's done by the media, who are mostly knuckleheads. Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq combined. In 30 years, when people look back on this era, they're going to be like, huh? Pierce was highly relevant for the entire decade, but just had lousy teams for half of the decade.
ReplyDeletePaul had a slight opening for top 5 status in 08, though he was still lightyears from Kobe or Lebron status then, and Paul still hasn't gotten back to that point. Paul is nowhere near what Koufax did. He's a tiny PG. I'd put him at around 5-6th top player this year, but once Dwight gets healthy, he'll be down another notch.
Parker had better seasons in 06 and 07, and Paul takes it in 08 and 09. At their respective bests, yes, Paul is better, but there's really not that big of a gap as you make it out to be. Even without the 3 rings and finals MVP, Parker wins in a landslide, but those just make some good icing.
This is an interesting one. You have to give it to Shaq because he's the last true center and won 4 titles in the 2000s. Duncan really blurs the line between C and PF, but you have to give it to him because he's a far better defender than Dirk and his playoff resume is better than KG, though I do like KG's versatility on offense. LeBron is a tough one because he really didn't come into his own until about 08, so really you have to base his consideration off 2 seasons but before then I'd have maybe gone with Pierce or McGrady - though on the whole LeBron is a vastly superior player. At the same time, LeBron really isn't a SF, he's anywhere from a SG to a PF depending on the situation. He's just so hard to compare. With PG you have to go with Nash - he's a far better shooter than Kidd and CP3 hasn't been around long enough and Parker is just now the leader where in the 2000s he was the 2nd or 3rd guy on his team. For SG it's Kobe by a mile, then Wade, then probably Ginobili, then Ray Allen, then Iverson because he'd shoot his team out of games, then way back would be Vince.
ReplyDeleteI miss Pau Gasol or even Yao Ming here. Better career than Howard.
ReplyDelete2 teams: c-oneal, f-duncan, f-garnett, g-bryant, g-nash
ReplyDeletec-howard, f-nowitzki, f-james, g-iverson,g-kidd
Too bad the foot and ankle injuries wrecked Ming's career. He was a really special player during his first few seasons. Gasol's been a great power forward, but was always more of a complementary piece. His recent postseason struggles have been puzzling, to say the least.
ReplyDeleteGasol's struggles were in the last 2 years, in the 2010s decade. Obviously he has no space in the team, Duncan and O'Neal were better, but I think he deserves at least the same (if not more) consideration of Parker, Ginobili or Carter. I may be biased, I'm spaniard, but I feel it's fair.
DeleteI totally agree with you with Yao, a great and promising player whose career was harmed by the injuries, just like Greg Oden's or Brandon Roy's.
(sorry for the bad english)
Kidd over Nash on every given Night!
ReplyDelete@Boyer
ReplyDeleteMaybe we would take you more seriously if you dumped on Howard for only playing 5 seasons, and where are your posts on the other pages disqualifying Jordan from both the 80's and 90's teams (5 seasons and 7 seasons)? If you look at combined regular and post season Win Shares, Lebron only finishes about a half season's worth of production short of Pierce who played four more seasons. You are right about their 08 matchup, though. Pierce's 41 blew away Lebron's 45! Actually it was pretty much a draw in that game, but Lebron played better for the series. Out of the 7 games, Pierce managed to play horribly in 4 of them.
I disagree with your views on Chris Paul as well. He is light years ahead of any other pg. His stats are mainly limited by the ridiculously slow pace they played at the Hornets. Actually pace adjusted his stats are pretty close to Magic Johnson with fewer turnovers and more steals to boot. He is the best pg in history in regards to controlling turnovers with a career turnover % of 13% compared to 20% for Magic, Stockton, Kidd, and Nash.
Speaking of pace adjusted, does anybody realize that adjusted back to the pace of Oscar Robertson's triple double season, Lebron has already averaged a triple double one time and came very close a few other times with some 9.5's in either assists or rebounds.
I really have never seen a discussion on the effect of pace of the stats of seasons past. They used to play at at an outrageously fast pace and shot horrible percentages and that is how guys like Wilt got all those rebounds. If you take into account the pace of play and the shooting percentages and adjust to per 36 minutes, Wilt's best season adjusts down to roughly 27 points and 15 rebounds which is great but not the legendary 50 points and 27 rebounds. You do have to give him credit for playing 48.5 minutes a game though but his backup was like a half foot shorter.
I do agree with Boyer that Nash was overrated. He played on some pretty talented teams where he could almost dribble the ball off his foot and get an assist. He played some of the worst defense in league history and his teams never really got anywhere in the playoffs.
@Anonymous, Howard wasn't chosen, Shaq; thus, why would I have a problem Howard beating out Shaq? Rethink what you're saying. Not commenting on other articles is irrelevant to this article. Win Shares isn't a very good way of comparing players. Pierce/Lebron were fairly equal in game 7, but I thought Pierce played better. Lebron scoring 4 more pts. doesn't necessarily mean he played better. Lebron also played very poorly in 4 games. If he actually played on par what he did during the season, the cavs win the series. But, in the end, he still had a chance in game 7, and just had to outplay Pierce, but couldn't.
DeleteIt's quite clear Paul isn't nowhere near as good as most think he is. He, much like Nash have had multiple good teams, playing with at least 1 AS. Nash never made the finals, and Paul hasn't even made 1 conf. final. He's a tiny player, and Isiah Thomas is the only player I think that led his team to a title being tiny. Don't get me wrong, Paul is very good, but to say he's light years ahead of any other PG is ridiculous. Westbrook is clearly better, and Rose is too, if healthy. Interesting how you recognize some of Nash's shortcomings, but fail to see this with Paul. Except possibly in 2013, Paul has never been the best player in a series when his team loses. And he's only won 2 playoff series in 3 years with the clips.
@Boyer
ReplyDeleteSo if a player went to 4 years of college and came to the NBA and was the best player in the league for 12 seasons but played only 6 seasons per decade, he would be disqualified from each decade even if he ended up being the greatest player of all time?
When did I say that? And who you talking about?
DeleteI stated my argument already, and stand by it. Pierce was relevant for entire decade, playing at mostly an AS level. Now if Lebron or someone else had 6 monster years, then yea, maybe, but he didn't. When Pierce finally got a great cast, he cashed in. When Lebron did in 09 and 10, he didn't. Paul barely played in the 2000s, and wasn't anywhere near as good as you and some others make him out to be.
If you want to adjust for pace (something I think is problematic for points and assists, although it works pretty well for rebounding), wouldn't you want to adjust for usage as well?
ReplyDeleteIf we adjust for usage, no way is Nash overrated. He had some of the lowest usage of any MVP ever. Ironically, one of his greatest attributes, his unselfishness, makes people underrate him and claim his MVPs were undeserved. If Nash had simply been more ball dominant, he could have easily put up such gaudy stats (23-14 if he had top ten usage is completely realistic) that nobody would question the validity of his MVPs. The idea that he benefited inordinately from playing on really talented teams is weird, too... the Suns were 29-53 the season before Nash joined them and 62-20 the season after, with basically the same squad other than Nash replacing Marbury. It was Nash that made the Suns a contender.
There's no magical formula that you can use to adjust for pace to come out with exact #'s. Yes, Wilt wouldn't be able to average what he did today, but he was still a complete beast of a player. Nash won 2 MVPs, while Shaq/Kobe combined for 2. How is that not the very definition of overrated?
DeleteHe's a PG. PGs distribute first usually. PGs in general are unselfish and SGs selfish in the eyes of the public, but they're each usually just playing their positions correctly. Nash was very ball dominant. I can't think of another player who had the ball in his hands more than Nash did. Yes, Nash was certainly better than Marbury. Amare improved as did others in Nash's first season. Also, the Mavs basically replaced Nash with Terry, and they improved. So, you have to look at it from both angles. Nash has played with multiple AS in Dallas, Phoenix, and 1 year in LA, and he's never made 1 finals appearance. If he's so great and underrated, then why is this?
PG Steve Nash--Edges out Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, and Tony Parker
ReplyDeleteId rather have CP3 and its not even close.
Nash is nowhere the defender that CP3 is and you can't run his patented pick and roll if Duncan/Shaq are on the floor along with Kobe and Lebron. No spacing on the floor at all...
SG Kobe Bryant--Over Manu Ginobili, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen and Vince Carter
Yeah you want a glorified ball hog who can't hit a three to save his life? Good luck with your spacing goals of 2013. 6/24 we remember. I'd actually take Bruce Bowen to fit the team. Dont need 5 ball-dependent super stars.
SF LeBron James--In a class by himself, but Carmelo Anthony, Tracy McGrady, and Paul Pierce are worthy of consideration as well
LeGOAT
PF Tim Duncan--Really tough call between him, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki. Pau Gasol's been great, too.
C Shaquille O'Neal--I'll take the former Superman over the current one (Dwight Howard) and Yao Ming, who just couldn't stay healthy.
Yup. Shaq 2000-2003 carried Kobe and could have won a championship with any second option who was an all star at the time.
Nash made everyone around him better and was possibly the best at doing it. Look down the list of players & their stats before and after playing with nash :Marion, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson. Ect.. Just compare the stats. Every SG & SF wanted to play with nash on their contract year because they knew their stats would shoot up.
ReplyDeleteBesides that, he is the champion of the 50 40 90 club.
PG. Nash-Kidd-Parker
ReplyDeleteSG. Kobe-Iverson-Wade
SF. Lebron-Pierce-Marion
PF. Duncan-Garnett-Stoudemire
C. Shaq-Howard
I feel Amare Stoudemire is being completely overlooked and with no just cause.